Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Ash Leighton Plom wrote:

[...] but the thing I'd want to make sure of first is that this wouldn't open us to legal attack from Fox or the like.

RLongtin wrote:

As mentioned I can lend my expertise to the management of the funds (how to do the recordkeeping) and what needs to be done to arrange everything (the business account, setting up the legal "not-for-profit organization" - which will really require someone cough up the bill for a lawyer/barrister unless they can find one to donate their time - arranging donations, etc.) but I don't have the time to do any of the actual work and given my actual line of work involves this stuff, I have a sort of...legal complication in actually doing the work involved.

Plus I doubt Euan wants to transfer the website to a non-UK-based service, so we'd really want the business account setup in the UK (so that the account doesn't get slapped with currency exchange in its payments for hosting and such). Also, technically, the website would need to have "shareholders" who have the legal permission to oversee the exchange of funds and the account balance (a lawyer/barrister might be able to word it differently so that the individuals with access aren't considered "shareholders") and so if the account is British pounds then the "shareholders" really ought to be UK based (though with the internet I suppose we only 'need' one person in the UK but I foresee further complications if it's a multinational thing).

These are all things in my purview at work for the office, though our lawyer takes care of the corporation's legal stuff (I just forward documents) - but again the best I can do is lend my knowledge of the subject (being mindful that my knowledge on this is limited, not to mention different laws in different countries mean I could be totally wrong for the case of the UK).

~Robert

Thing is if we sell stuff we can't sell copyrighted thing or things that use copyrighted materials, and if we have donations going they can still accuse us and cause a big stink but that's why the bookkeeping has to be done well. Issue being they can deliver a summons and then someone has to go in-person with the bookkeeping and say "yes, the money collected has not been used for profit". And really, they wouldn't have a reason to suspect us for trying to profit if we have a donation meter that says something about "help keep our site online" or the like.

But as I say, a lot of the work is done through a lawyer/barrister. That individual may be able to facilitate the entire process of dealing with people like FOX but again there's a price tag.

~Robert

http://i41.tinypic.com/2q2e0ig.png

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Haha I like that one.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

That's why, it's Phoenix merchband not sim affiliated merch.

Like a shirt. Design which  can be put up that says I burnt down a town and caused havoc and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.

Or in RL I'm a _________ by night I'm saving worlds.

Lame ideas but you get what I'm saying.

Raven

Thumbs up +2 Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Cool ideas, actually, very cool, and I'd really like to explore it, but I do remain anxious about the legal risk. Fox especially are known for slamming fan communities on the grounds that they're profiting from Fox's stuff.

Ash

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Like I said, no sim related merchandise. Anything copyright related cannot have merch on the site. Only original sims and fun gamer things we come up with.and to save Phoenix the direct legal hassle, it can be set up from a separate graphics store

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Ash Leighton Plom wrote:

Fox especially are known for slamming fan communities on the grounds that they're profiting from Fox's stuff.

RavenSkycatcher wrote:

Like I said, no sim related merchandise.

The merchandise isn't really the concern, in fact we're covered under fair use even if we put copyrighted materials on merchandise. It starts getting hairy when you begin collecting money in general. I had consulted a friend of mine who is a lawyer specifically for intellectual rights and he explained these things in detail. I've shared his comments before but here it is again:

Critical question: Is anyone making money off of your site?  If the answer is no, then you're pretty well covered by fair use, and can safely ignore these stupid letters that they send out by the arseload.

If the answer is yes, then you've got a problem, but I can give you more information if it comes to that.

Hence the reason the bookkeeping must be impeccable.

~Robert

http://i41.tinypic.com/2q2e0ig.png

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Understood Boss man.

- Raven

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Bringing this up again, as we never got to any formal conclusion. I'm hereby formally proposing the following:

Roles and Responsibilities Section V - The Treasurer
Article 1. The office of Treasurer shall last indefinitely until such time as the holder wishes to vacate it, is removed by the General Membership by majority vote, or is banned from the site. The office-holder shall be decided by the General Membership by majority vote as conducted by the EVC.
Article 2. The Treasurer holds final responsibility for the fiscal wellbeing of Phoenix Roleplaying.
Article 3. The Treasurer has the right to, in coordination with the General and Technical Coordinators (or their appointed deputies) organise fundraising efforts to aid in this duty, but must be prepared to pay "out of pocket" if necessary.
Article 4.The Treasurer shall receive no rights or privileges from their position. In particular, the Treasurer shall in no way be considered the "owner" of Phoenix Roleplaying - our site is collectively owned by the General Membership.

Existing sections V-VIII to be renumbered VI to IX.

Any comments and/or a second?

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

I'll also note that I'm willing to serve in the proposed Treasurer role, as I've thus far been effectively filling it.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Article 2 probably needs to be expanded to detail what it entails. Covering server costs? Advertising? Can we advertise? Bookkeeping (which Robert rightly repeatedly highlighted the importance of)? Running a business account and setting us up and maintaining us as a not-for-profit organisation? The power to delegate any of this?

Fundraising you mention in Article 3, but that might need a disclaimer that it's to cover costs and not make a profit.

I think if we're doing this we have to do it carefully and well.

Ash

Last edited by Ash Leighton Plom (2013-11-27 16:13:48)

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

I'd argue 2 is very clear on what it entails - nothing more and nothing less than final fiscal responsibility. As for 3, it's to aid and abet 2, thus only for purposes that 2 exists for.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

I think a lawyer from Fox or MGM or the like would want a more explicit statement that "fiscal wellbeing" and "fundraising" don't mean making money from their property.

Here's my working amendment, with additions in italics.

Roles and Responsibilities Section V - The Treasurer
Article 1. The office of Treasurer shall last indefinitely until such time as the holder wishes to vacate it, is removed by the General Membership by majority vote, or is banned from the site. The office-holder shall be decided by the General Membership by majority vote as conducted by the EVC as soon as is convenient to the General Membership.
Article 2. The Treasurer holds final responsibility for the fiscal wellbeing of Phoenix Roleplaying, covering server costs and keeping accurate accounts of how the site's costs are met. These accounts must be available to the General Membership on request within 15 days' notice.
Article 3. The Treasurer has the right to, in coordination with the General and Technical Coordinators (or their appointed deputies) organise fundraising efforts to aid in this duty, but must be prepared to pay "out of pocket" if necessary.
Article 4.The Treasurer shall receive no rights or privileges from their position. In particular, the Treasurer shall in no way be considered the "owner" of Phoenix Roleplaying - our site is collectively owned by the General Membership.

I'm not proposing that for a vote, yet, though, I think it still needs some work. For example is the Treasurer a Coordinator in terms of being bound by the section in the R&R on Deputy Coordinators? Ie does the Treasurer have to appoint and publicly announce a Deputy within 10 days from the date of their election? I'd say having a deputy treasurer is good, but this would be a deputy position like no other because the Deputy GC serves a term as a deputy only as long as the GC: deputy coordinators lose their office upon the election of the next coordinator, even if the coordinator who appointed them is re-elected: they have to be appointed all over again. Whereas the deputy treasurer would be a permanent position, as the treasurer position is.

I'm not trying to overcomplicate this, but I don't think it's something we can be vague and free with either.

Ash

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

For one thing, we need a EVC before we can have a vote on this.

- GC

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

I'd like to bring this back up again, and I'd actually like to formally propose the amendment I last posted. "final fiscal responsiblity" has a clear legal meaning - it means the literal buck stops with them. They are responsible for making sure the site has funds to run, which includes paying out their own pocket. Frankly, I'd consider this the only role the Phoenix Treasurer *should* have - their job is to make sure we can pay hosting. That's it. That's all they do. They shoulder the economic burden so those running for positions of authority don't have to, and nothing more.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

I agree with your proposal, Euan.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Is that a second, Misty? If so, this can be put on the next ballot to be voted on.

http://www.phoenix-rp.com/img/pips/4.png http://oi60.tinypic.com/5otabo.jpg

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Yes, seconded.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Awesome! Kevin, can you add this to the next ballot, please? Thanks!

http://www.phoenix-rp.com/img/pips/4.png http://oi60.tinypic.com/5otabo.jpg

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

So....I know we haven't had a ballot, but it's been almost three months. Can we have a ballot alongside the extraordinary GC election?

-Euan

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Planning on introducing that shortly. We have a couple issues to add to this election. Was giving nominations a few days before adding more.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Good stuff.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

I voted against the motion as proposed because I think my questions (appended) maybe still need answering - should the Treasurer be a Coordinator, can the Treasurer appoint a deputy, etc.?


Ash Leighton Plom wrote:

I think a lawyer from Fox or MGM or the like would want a more explicit statement that "fiscal wellbeing" and "fundraising" don't mean making money from their property.

Here's my working amendment, with additions in italics.

Roles and Responsibilities Section V - The Treasurer
Article 1. The office of Treasurer shall last indefinitely until such time as the holder wishes to vacate it, is removed by the General Membership by majority vote, or is banned from the site. The office-holder shall be decided by the General Membership by majority vote as conducted by the EVC as soon as is convenient to the General Membership.
Article 2. The Treasurer holds final responsibility for the fiscal wellbeing of Phoenix Roleplaying, covering server costs and keeping accurate accounts of how the site's costs are met. These accounts must be available to the General Membership on request within 15 days' notice.
Article 3. The Treasurer has the right to, in coordination with the General and Technical Coordinators (or their appointed deputies) organise fundraising efforts to aid in this duty, but must be prepared to pay "out of pocket" if necessary.
Article 4.The Treasurer shall receive no rights or privileges from their position. In particular, the Treasurer shall in no way be considered the "owner" of Phoenix Roleplaying - our site is collectively owned by the General Membership.

I'm not proposing that for a vote, yet, though, I think it still needs some work. For example is the Treasurer a Coordinator in terms of being bound by the section in the R&R on Deputy Coordinators? Ie does the Treasurer have to appoint and publicly announce a Deputy within 10 days from the date of their election? I'd say having a deputy treasurer is good, but this would be a deputy position like no other because the Deputy GC serves a term as a deputy only as long as the GC: deputy coordinators lose their office upon the election of the next coordinator, even if the coordinator who appointed them is re-elected: they have to be appointed all over again. Whereas the deputy treasurer would be a permanent position, as the treasurer position is.

I'm not trying to overcomplicate this, but I don't think it's something we can be vague and free with either.

Ash

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

I think I thought I'd answered those before. The Treasurer is neither Coordinator nor Officer - if they were, they'd be removed annually. They are their own role, responsible for financing the site. They don't need a deputy, because their job is to be The Person Who Pays For The Site - there's no purpose for a deputy to fill. The treasurer's card is on the monthly billing and pays for it. That's it. The Treasurer can do fundraising with help from the General and Technical Coordinators, but it's an option, not an expectation. Mixing in deputies and Coordinators is, I feel, an unnecessary complication - the role is simple and straightforward without them.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

As this has passed, I've updated the R&R. We'll need to elect a Treasurer now.

Re: Proposal: Phoenix Treasurer

Euan Reid wrote:

I think I thought I'd answered those before. The Treasurer is neither Coordinator nor Officer - if they were, they'd be removed annually. They are their own role, responsible for financing the site. They don't need a deputy, because their job is to be The Person Who Pays For The Site - there's no purpose for a deputy to fill. The treasurer's card is on the monthly billing and pays for it. That's it. The Treasurer can do fundraising with help from the General and Technical Coordinators, but it's an option, not an expectation. Mixing in deputies and Coordinators is, I feel, an unnecessary complication - the role is simple and straightforward without them.

I'm with you. That all makes sense to me. Thanks!

Thumbs up Thumbs down