Topic: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Members of Phoenix, some of the founders have recently received an email and they immediately shared it with the senior leadership. Due to its nature and who it was from, we have had to have a few discussion and now we are bringing it forward to share with the general membership.  Once things have seen hashed out and settled, there will be a vote. Now…

The email was from Alex Verdusco.

Question... And appreciate it if this is kept discreet. Looking to take ownership back of AJJE for the sole purpose of giving it away to another RPG. I would still own the rights to PARS, but would give it out on a multiple year basis to another RPG at no cost. New people would have total control of the site, ie import their operations inside/ change name to their name and I would want no role in the new club. The only thing I request is the AJJE players still around be given a home, and at least one page about the history of AJJE exist somewhere on the new site. Let me know if Phoenix is even interested before I start down this path.

Part has already happened. The board voted and he has control over the site (www.ajjgegames.com) and the club. We told him that we had to bring it to the general membership and that it would have to be voted upon.
Some of you are confused, I know. Some are scratching their heads with some choice words forming in their heads, and some have questions.

PARS: Post And Reply System.
Phoenix and AJJE: In 2010 there was discord in AJJE and many of it’s members left and started Phoenix. (The Schism).


I'm proposing a two week discussion/question/details period and a week for voting.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I must abstain from this. I don't feel I really have any platform. Sorry.

Why did Suzy fall out of the swing?  Because she had no arms.
Knock, knock. Who's there?
Not Suzy

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Misty: You have a typo in the URL, it's ajjegames.com. You have an extra 'g' in it.

As Brandon said, I'm not sure I have any real say here. I joined just over a year ago but wasn't here for the grandiose Schism that I've read so much about.

Nonetheless, in looking at what I know, to offer an opinion I would need to know what we gain out of it.

I don't think we need the AJJE domain, since we use PunBB and have it actively being developed (mostly) don't think we need the PARS system, and although I didn't see it mentioned, don't really think we need their user base.

Am I missing something important? If so, please tell me so I can offer a corrected opinion, but currently I would decline the proposal myself.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I know that we would gladly welcome in their Users, I'm sure with potential exceptions from and for some members of both sites. But I agree with Elrood on the domain and Pars.

-B

Why did Suzy fall out of the swing?  Because she had no arms.
Knock, knock. Who's there?
Not Suzy

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Thanks, I've corrected it.

But as members you both have a voice in this discussion.

I'll post more later but in regards to needin their member base...no we don't need it, but we should and would welcome them. They are basically losing their RP community.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I'll make a quick statement on PARS. Plain fact is most of what we have wanted and asked for in Phoenix 2.0 is based on what PARS already did. Its a much more graphical system that allows for great customization of the look of individual sims. One of the greatest sorrows of the Great Schism, aside from how terribly some of their leadership treated us, was losing the PARS system. Most of us still would like features it had. Now its being offered to us on a minimum 5 year license.

Features of PARS

  • Customizable Sim landing pages (MOTD)

  • Automated registration system that places new members in gateway sims.

  • Better graphical interface

  • Picture for individual characters with posts

  • Integrated player profiles, badges and awards

  • Instant change of characters when posting

  • Easier for GM/NPC posts

  • Drop down for sim

  • Integrated voting system

  • Better member/non-member security

In truth Euan, can give the best explanation on the benefits of PARS and how it compares to where we are headed with 2.0. Accepting PARS could give us a lot of the functionality we have been asking for. Yes, we are fine as we have been, but can we improve? That's a bit more of what this is about. Would PARS improve Phoenix? In many ways it would.

Also most of our Firefly sims are based on counter part on AJJE. Many still have active crews. Fusing them together would be a big boost for our Firefly sims. Keeping our SLs of course.

This is an opportunity to potentially improve Phoenix and rescue a bunch of RPers that are loosing their home.

Last edited by Zuzutoo (2015-02-20 21:24:54)

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Not only that - we'd be able to save a number of their sim ideas that belong to the site and return them to the members. There's one sim in particular, a 1980s espionage sim called Covert-81, that I'd like to revive.

PARS isn't perfect - but we could incorporate a lot of its better features into 2.0.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Personally, I am all for the rescuing of Roleplayers who simply want to do just that... Roleplay.
I detest drama and conflict, and through it all, we do need to put Phoenix's future first and foremost... If this will lead to us losing some of our strongest members, is it really worth the cost?

In regards to the proposal, as it currently stands I fear there isn't enough to benefit Phoenix within the proposal itself, as it safeguards and benefits only Alex in the longterm, while granting not an awful lot of security to Phoenix... I'd say that before we go any further with it, the terms of the proposal would have to be discussed and changed, but that's just my two cents...

Overall, I'm against the merger in its current state, but I'm definitely for saving other roleplayers... So I will withhold my official decision until the situation has developed further.

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

would this mean we move somewhere else or just that we get another forum software to run?

- I would still own the rights to PARS, but would give it out on a multiple year basis to another RPG at no cost.

- and at least one page about the history of AJJE exist somewhere on the new site.

no PARS, no History ... i know its mean, but that is how the world works isn't it ?

Last edited by Spart (2015-02-20 23:29:03)

Armored with faith, armed with knowledge, blessed with wrath.
Jennifer Roth-Mud&Mercs|Felix Winter-Wing Commander|Jochen Baumann-Covert-81|Neera Anzari-Area 88 Waving Wings|Eric O'brien-Area 88 Crimson Skies|Torsten Winkler-Rainbow Six

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Aa Kevin stated, it was mentioned that Alex would be willing to do 5 years with the license to PARS. I asked about the what if with updates/issues and he said that he could name a designee, who is their current webmaster. She is knowledgeable with with PARS as I believe our TC is, and she plans on staying around to RP.

Euan had some ideas about creating a PARS "wing" and doing a slow transition. But, that is for him to explain.

I highly doubt that we would need to take in players if our vote on this is no, as I believe that the offer will move on to another club. I would love for some of the sims there to merge back with their counterparts here. For those here to get back what they gave up in leaving AJJE in the first place. AJJE is dying, and will either be taken in by another club (and what better than us), or it'll die. And this has basically, in my opinion, been the outcome of the Schism. I would love for things to come full circle.

I asked Kevin to come up with some pros of the PARs system which he has already and posted above. I would like to ask any that know it to do the same..and also some cons. Let's weigh those.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I'm pretty busy just now, so don't have the time to type out the longer post I'd like to, but some summary points:

1. I think we should take this option
2. Our agreement with Alex should include taking over all of AJJE's content and copyrights
3. We can return copyrights to the creators per our rules
4. We can have PARS run as a side-site for later gradual merging of content/users/etc - thus giving a home to players straight away
5. A short page on AJJE is no burden to create, but we should mention the Schism only in the most objective terms - that it happened, the aftereffects (creation of Phoenix and AJJE going single-club), and that more information is available elsewhere

If we say no, Alex has stated he will be looking to other sites to take him up on the offer.

-Euan

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Being a very new member and even more so - a very non techie member - I am pretty lost here in this discussion and that's fine.

Having just been an rpg site refugee, I do sympathize with their plight though and think we should welcome new people even as you guys welcomed me bringing in the new game with new folks.

Zuzutoo and Euan have forgotten more than I know about computers so if both of them are leaning that way, who am I to vote against it.

But I'd be happy to abstain too as to be honest, I am in over my head here on this subject.

(Not bad waffling on my part, huh? tongue )

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

My few cents:

1. I love PARS. I was webmaster at AJJE before the schism and it is a joy to use.

2. As a rolepayer who lost a home in the past (AJJE) I know how that feels and am sympathetic towards any player in a similar position, but we do not need to change anything from our current position to offer roleplayers a home - our door is open.

3. Qualifying point 2, there are a few of us here in Phoenix who, as a result of events during the schism, would need almost a managed restorative justice approach to negotiating the integration of certain members of AJJE in order for us not feel disempowered. Not impossible, but likely difficult. Luckily it would seem that those certain members of AJJE have either already left or would not want to come here. But my point is this - it could be tricky.

4. A 'short page on AJJE' would no doubt be easy to create, but I would say it would be very difficult for such a page to meet everyone's needs, and that this should be undertaken with great sensitivity to all parties, particularly those members of Phoenix who were banned from AJJE for standing up for each other's rights.

5. It is perfectly reasonable for players to abstain in this vote - an abstention is a reasonable thing to do in a democracy!  The most important thing is that we have the right to vote. Go us. smile

Deborah

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I am definitely in favor of taking over the copyrights of the sims at AJJE to give them back to the players who have created those sims.

I too remember PARS from my time at AJJE and there are definitely sides to it that are very appealing (and which already have been mentioned, so I won't do that again).

There is however, one issue here that I have trouble with: the 5-year license. In essence this means that after those 5 years the license could be taken from us. So if by that time we are heavy users of that system, and if Alex decides not to give us the PARS-license again, we'd be left behind with a crippled site.

PARS in itself is great, but I'd say that without any guarantees that we can keep using it indefinitely, the offer doesn't seem good enough to me.

But again, helping the players over there to get the rights to their own sims and giving them a place to play in those sims (which as far as I know, we are already doing: everybody is of course welcome to join Phoenix), of that I am a strong supporter.



-Mischa

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I am going to ask if there is a guest account that folks here can possibly use to check out PARS.

Yes, after 5 years he could decided against allowing us to have another license but, in 5 years I would hope things would have already been transitioned over to Phoenix and what we would be using 2.0 by then. Angela Austin (actually she's married now,not sure what her married name is atm), is who Alex would name as his designee.

And, just to say this... AJJE is closing.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Just to have things clear: when eventually our 2.0 system is introduced, it will have a lot of features that PARS has now, meaning that should the license for using PARS be discontinued by then, we wouldn't lose much in terms of functionality. In fact, the plan is to favor 2.0 over PARS when 2.0 is done. Is that correct?

In that case I do not see a problem with a 5 year license (at least) for using PARS, although I'd strongly recommend keeping a close eye on the terms of usage.



-Mischa

Last edited by Mischa Brendel (2015-02-23 09:35:32)

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

The cons of PARS are a lack of separate threads, no email notification and some time-code that could be annoying if you played in multiple sims at once.

I'm only really bothered about the IPs for my sims.

Silent

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Actually there is an email notification opiton, now.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Well, it has been nearly five years...

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Okie dokie. If I offend anyone here, I'm sorry. I'll try and clarify if there's any issues or questions.

As Elrood said earlier, we were not around when the Schism happened, though we have both read the great deal of the drama and such that it entailed.

That being said, reading over what has been mentioned here, there are some obvious things that need pointing out.

1) We *need* their members. In case people are forgetting this, ALL of our sims are currently being played by the same 10-20 people, and that's it. We currently don't have a wide area for growth of new sims here in Phoenix because of this.

2) This agreement is entirely favoring Alex, and screwing the other party over royally. He's eating a royal feast, and we're getting the bones and table scraps.

As it stands now, I am not comfortable with this agreement. If it is changed, and more neutrally favored, my vote will change to a positive vote, but I can not, in good conscience vote 'yes' for how it is currently structured.

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Could you clarify a bit on what you mean, Imzadi? Can you quote the parts in the agreement that you think that are favoring Alex and screwing over the other party? And could you specify how you would like to see this changed?

As far as I'm concerned you don't have to apologise for anything; the very reason for these discussions is to clarify things and hear everyone's opinion. smile



-Mischa

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

It was already mentioned, but it's the fact that Alex is "loaning" us the licence(s) for PARS for 5 years. If it was a permanent transfer, I'd be fine with it, but as it stands, there is nothing to say that at the end of the 5 years, he doesn't strip our use of it away, and do this whole thing to another RP Community.

From the wording of his e-Mail, it seems that there's nothing to say that he hasn't already started shopping this idea around.

I have no problems absorbing their members (because we need them), but I can not willingly agree to something that could potentially put us right back where we are in 5 years.

I should also point out, that there's nothing that states that Alex can't be a total prick and decide 2 months into this venture that he wants PARS back, either.

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I would agree that there needs to be some sort of an opened use agreement that cannot be arbitrarily pulled. I know he has his terms of use, but we dont need somebody holding the trigger on something as essential as an operating system for our games.

PARS is useful, but I don't want undue strings attached. If as Euan states it could be set up to run parrallel to Phoenix to keep continuity for the AJJE folks and slowly work a transition into something that works for us, then we can't be harmed. We do need the player base. We are a good fit, since their games run pretty much the same as ours. We just need to protect our interests into the future.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

just to lighten the mood:
sim board manager sim when ? ^.~

Armored with faith, armed with knowledge, blessed with wrath.
Jennifer Roth-Mud&Mercs|Felix Winter-Wing Commander|Jochen Baumann-Covert-81|Neera Anzari-Area 88 Waving Wings|Eric O'brien-Area 88 Crimson Skies|Torsten Winkler-Rainbow Six

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Will Phoenix 2.0 keep its separate threads or go to the PARS system of only one? Because that was the one thing I was full of hate about the system regarding. HAAAAATE.

So much so that if we go to PARS and implement it into this particular site, I might have to leave it. sad Harsh but true.

So I do welcome the members, but I'm wary of anything that's AJJE related, honestly. I was around for the Schism and tried to be in both places without success. I wound up here because it was better all around. I honestly prefer the message board we have here to the PARS system in about 90% of the ways, but I'm comfortable with it and have been for a donkey's age. I'm also not in the know about why Alex stepped away in the first place and handed things over to the people who wound up causing the Schism to begin with - now he's suddenly back and has AJJE and is shopping around for someone to take it for five years? I might need an explanation for that bit before I make any final judgments.

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Rhiannon

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