Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I agree with Dondi (post 25) and Imzadi (e.g. posts 20, 22) and what Mischa said in post 14 and Kevin said in post 23, essentially that there's an anxiety that there isn't enough guarantee in this for us that Alex won't at some point say "I'm taking 'my' ball and leaving".

Also to reiterate especially what Deborah said in point 2 of her post (post 13; that AJJE players can join us without us needing to absorb AJJE, and if Phoenix 2.0 is going to include some PARS-like aspects then that would presumably be comfortable for them), point 3 of her post (I would be unable to stay if some of the people from AJJE who were abusive to me came to Phoenix), and point 4 - which is the need for sensitivity. I already feel that there's a bit of pressure to get this deal agreed.

But while I have all those sorts of practical and emotional reservations, I'm not totally against this if it's handled with due care. I think Misty just about nailed the heart of my best sentiment about this, which is that AJJE's current situation (closure) are the consequences of the Schism (I think I would say that it's the consequences of the causes of the Schism) and that there is a certain appeal in achieving something of a reconciliation. But I don't want to be 'reconciled' with the people that were abusive and I don't want to feel like I have to grin and bear the discomfort of being in contact with people I've put up personal boundaries against to prevent further harm.

I think in summary for me:

1. It would seem sufficient to me if AJJE players seeking a home were offered one here, without a need for any kind of legal agreement between us and Alex.
2. I would personally need those members vetted on a case-by-case consultative basis so that none of our existing players feel compelled to withdraw.
3. But if we do pursue accepting an offer from Alex "giving" us AJJE, I think a lot more work needs to be done and clarity provided on just exactly what's being "given" and what he can take back, what all of that will mean for Phoenix - for our sims and our players - and there would need to be some rock solid framework in place for all that.

Ash

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

The Russians have a saying, that the late Ronald Reagan was a fan of, "Trust but verify". This reminds me of some of the Cold War-era arms control treaties. There is a reason why we call AJJE "the old country".

Some points/suggestions:
1. I severely doubt any of the guilty parties from the Schism will join Phoenix (most of them have left AJJE now) - and if any attempt to join, I would advocate them being shown the door ASAP. I can provide names of those I believe to be guilty to the GC.
2. We need a firm 'contract' drawn up in simple to understand language and presented to the members of Phoenix for ratification. I would also suggest copies of that are given to neutral parties who can determine if any violation has taken place - Yatalu and David Ball spring to mind.
3. The PARS wing should stay on its own; no player or sim should be compelled to move to operating it. Features (and I strongly suggest we do not copy one line of their coding to keep us on the legal side) can be incorporated into 2.0, but the existing Phoenix board software should stay intact.
4. I want the return of AJJE sim copyrights to players to be irrevocable and explicitly stated as such.
5. We may want to get some actual legal advice here.
6. I would like a formal unreserved apology from Alex for his actions during the Schism.
7. We might not even be here in five years.
8. I would personally love to revive Covert-81 here.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

To me the single most important thing is actually that which Silent has listed as his point 4. If we should decide to house PARS here (without going into details as to the what and how) then it should be made clear immediately that the sim ownerships and PARS will be separated and these ownerships would be returned to the players who play in those sims. They can of course themselves decide if they want to keep playing their sims in PARS, migrate them to Phoenix or take them with them to a whole other site. Should Alex decide to pull back his PARS license for whatever reason, those players and their sims would be safe and they would be free to take them where they wish to.



-Mischa

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Misty,

Any news on the negotiations?

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

This is more than likely going to be long so I can hit on as many points/things as possible. Sorry to all, but I had something personal and highly emotional pop up late last week (not the death of Leonard Nimoy) and I had to take a few days to get my mind un-mushed.

Yes, we can most certainly use the members it would bring in, as well as in their case too. They have sims that are struggling along…and have been.  Not that many, mind you, but some. What we would do in the case of duplicate ships, I don’t know… they are renamed here on Phoenix. But that’s not for right now, as Mischa said.

If one of the main concerns is over the length of the PARS agreement, I can tell everyone that he has said he would like a permanent home for PARS. If it is agreeable to him for Euan to incorporate it into 2.0 and have folks chose which “front-end” they prefer, I think that would be awesome.  Euan would have to  explain that,though.

Yes, we should have something that protects us…I’ll look into that with some help.

I’ll have to ask Euan to answer Dondi’s question. As I stated above, I believe he said that users would be able to pick their preferred front end. But I should state that this ISN’T something that if agreed upon, will happen overnight. Also is response to Dondi’s post, it is my personal opinion that AJJE never fully recovered. Their server contract is almost up, also…. I am feeling like other than completely closing, this is the other option.

Does Alex have another club in mind, probably yes… and honestly who wouldn’t if you wanted something you created to continue? But… PHOENIX IS HIS FIRST CHOICE.

Unless they choose to come to us for whatever reasons… there won’t be any absorbing members without PARS. Those things are going to be hand in hand.

Alex has stated that he is “willing to turn over the archive data and sims to Phoenix Roleplaying which would include archived data.” Which would  and should be put into an formal agreement. (depending on our vote)

We need to decide if this is something we want to do and figure out a way to accomplish it without losing any members we currently have. Personally it isn’t worth losing anyone already here over. If we can figure those things out and want to pursue this venture, then we need to work on an agreement.  I agree that this is a lot to consider, but there was no way that we could not bring it to the attention of the general membership.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

The two week period I mentioned in the first post will be up on the 5th. I am going to go ahead and start typing up an agreement/proposed agreement for voting.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Good work. The draft'll need some extra time for discussion, presumably.

Although we have policies around getting things done with reasonable dispatch (eg admin policy 6 on this page), we also have policies for thoroughness (eg admin policy 9 on the same page that require that the motion be "sufficiently discussed" and that the members must know exactly what they are being asked to decide (and so the proposed motion must be put in a form that can be answered "Yes", "No," or "Abstain").

There are also sections 7, 8, and 9 of policy 9 that note that the community may from time to time be faced with multiple solutions when attempting to reach a decision, and where there is more than one solution to a problem, each solution may be put separately to the vote. Where the alternatives are mutually exclusive, it may be desirable to discuss the options together until the general trend of opinion is apparent and then to put only one of them to the vote. That's the process we're embarked upon here of course.

Also worth keeping in mind, Member Policy 9 gives us a good frame of reference for our community ethos wrt some of the matters we're considering.

Ash

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Misty Wilson wrote:

The two week period I mentioned in the first post will be up on the 5th. I am going to go ahead and start typing up an agreement/proposed agreement for voting.

Thanks. Look forward to seeing it.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Where are we with this proposition?

G.

"My faith protects me. My Kevlar helps" - (Jim Butcher)

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Sorry, I was waiting for a email, but since I am still waiting:


Should Phoenix Roleplaying enter into an agreement with Alex Verdusco of AJJEGames to utilize his proprietary Post And Reply System (PARS) for a period no less than five years? (would like something "longer" here and then to say but no less than five years) The license to use the system will be without cost to Phoenix. (Should insert some wording about the copyright) PARS will be used in parallel to Phoenix’s current system of play and will not replace it. In addition, Phoenix will acquire all copyrights to AJJE sims and characters, past and present. Phoenix will also incorporate all members of AJJE that wish to remain with their sims under Phoenix’s rules.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Shouldn't there be something in it stating that as soon as Phoenix acquires the copyrights to all AJJE sims those sims automatically fall under Phoenix policy, whith a link to that policy? Although some might say 'that goes without saying' others might not immediately realize that and feel like we want to take over too much.



-Mischa

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/hollyzuzu/6bd9dace-1d9f-469e-b069-b872b1d826dd_zpswfifvw2x.jpg

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Yes, good point. I wondered last night if it should be included.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I couldn't vote in favour of the motion as it stands, because of the sentence "Phoenix will also incorporate all members of AJJE that wish to remain with their sims under Phoenix’s rules."

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I agree. I would suggest "Phoenix will also incorporate, subject to approval by the General Coordinator, any members of AJJE that wish to remain with their sims under Phoenix’s rules".

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I also still hold that safeguards should be put in place to protect Phoenix and its players. The base proposal I saw gave Alex all the power and authority over the transfer, leaving us with nothing but a time stamp, and therefore at the end of said time, anything could happen.

I suggest something that prevents any action following the "five year" term, to reclaim or usurp the system back without due process. Also, it should be that if Alex chooses to retake PARS following the agreed period, then he takes back PARS as a system, and only that, being he cannot seize part of our site, nor can he strip people of their intellectual property, characters or the like...

http://oi40.tinypic.com/t8uufd.jpg
"If you live in the UK, dial 999. If you live in the USA, dial 911. If you're from another country... SO SORRY."

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Hi guys.

Was looking at this whole conversation and I think one protection we can give players is to ensure that the games and content created by the players stays in their ownership, with a shared use based on which site the material was shared.

If it was made here, the creator's rights remain intact, but Phoenix can still have games go on based off that material. The same would be from the other site if this deal is agreed to. The other site's administration and what not doesn't have the right to have material made for exclusive use here if the deal ends and ownerships revert.

To be honest it has to be clear it should be up to the player what is to be done when the combination happens and who gets the shared right to use it.

Last edited by Osprey (2015-03-16 10:52:44)

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

On that count, Osprey, this motion might be of interest - formalising (at long last) Phoenix's stance on ownership/copyright/etc. With regards to the potential merging in of AJJE, I think the intent is that all content belonging to AJJE is given to Phoenix permanently - AJJE is closing in due course.

Regarding the proposal, Misty's asked me to expand it a bit to include some tech things and legalese. I'm drafting that up just now, then after a brief discussion with her it'll be posted here.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Seems legit, Euan, I'll take a look.

I know our diplomats won't give away the homeworld. wink

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

Here we go, folks:

Misty Wilson acting on behalf of Phoenix Roleplaying as its elected representative does hereby offer the following agreement to Alex Verdusco, owner of AJJE Games:

1. Phoenix Roleplaying will take immediate and complete ownership of all copyrights - characters, original roleplaying settings, and any other copyright - held by AJJE Games.

2. Phoenix Roleplaying will enter into a long-term license, to last no less than five years, with Alex Verdusco in his role as the owner of the PARS posting technology to use the same technology to power some of the roleplaying environments on the Phoenix Roleplaying website.

3. The license referred to in 2 shall be bound by the following conditions:

3a. Alex Verdusco and/or a single designee of his choosing (hereafter referred collectively as Alex Verdusco), shall always have server access to PARS.

3b. Phoenix Roleplaying members authorised by Alex Verdusco are permitted to make adjustments to PARS. Anything that materially redefines the flow or alters the function of PARS shall not be classified as an adjustment and must have the approval of Alex Verdusco before being implemented.

3c. Should Phoenix Roleplaying violate condition 3a or 3b, Alex Verdusco shall have the right to remove PARS from the Phoenix Roleplaying website with a sixty day notice.

4. For absolute clarity, and the benefit of plain English terms, this agreement may be read as follows: Alex Verdusco will hand over all AJJE copyrights to Phoenix. Separately to this, Phoenix will license PARS from Alex Verdusco, on the conditions that Alex or his designee always have access to the PARS installation, that only Phoenix members authorised by Alex/his designee may adjust PARS code, and that any significant changes to PARS must have Alex/his designee’s approval. If these conditions are broken, Alex may terminate the license and remove PARS from the Phoenix website - however, even if this happens, Phoenix will continue to hold the copyrights.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

To expand on the agreement, what happens after isn't part of it - but we'd act like we do with anything. Democratically. Assuming the motion on ownership/copyright passes, Phoenix would distribute those accordingly. Sims that want to continue on the forum/PARS can, and those that wish to switch engine can. I'll work on unifying logins so it's a single username/password, and otherwise...well, business as usual. But with more options.

As to the question of people moving with sims, we don't have a closed membership policy. Anyone can join by signing up. Why should we treat this any differently? Why should we be discriminating and going "Ah, you're coming with this sim? Sorry, we have to vet you first" when they could literally sign up to the site right now with no such bar?

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

There is no discrimination about it. I don't want people who abused us given a free pass.

I will abstain on this and if any AJJE member guilty of abuse in the Schism is allowed to join this part of the combined site, I will have to leave.

Edit: To clarify; any guilty AJJE member who does not make a full apology for their actions back in 2009/10.

Last edited by Silent Hunter (2015-03-19 19:12:14)

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I agree with Ash and Silent here that currently the proposal doesn't make me feel comfortable. I won't abstain but I would vote against it as it is.

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

While it does leave a 60 day window open for Alex to pull Shenanigans, its only to a secondary operating system, not to main phoenix accounts. We gain more options and lose nothing, not to mention capturing the long lost copyrights to numerous stories that were stripped from us. While I dont know how Euan is going to put this all together, it has greater benefits than risks. Actually the only risks involve future concepts that dont exist is the present. I think it is highly unlikely anyone that was pivotal in the schism will come to Phoenix, since they arent really playing in AJJE now to start with.  If they do, I would recommend they be made aware of the sentiments of some in the membership and be permitted to make apologies and bring about reconciliation in private messages to injured parties. I would not support public statements of wrongdoing. The contract in and of itself seems harmless if used properly and only benefits us.

Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

As I wasn't there for the past history of that site, I won't go into the particulars.

What is an issue is our adopting the PARS system for posting. Will that mean all of Phoenix's sims be converted to PARS sims, or will this forum still exist.

Also if a sim is converted, if Phoenix loses the rights to PARS, could that cause a loss of data?

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Re: IMPORTANT Proposition for Phoenix

I can see how this seems to be a good option considering the technical parts and also in regards to copyright. The way I see it our own data will remain our own, Osprey; there shouldn't be any trouble there. And no, not all sims will be converted to PARS: that is up to the sims. Both our system (and as far as I know Euan is still working very hard on version 2) and PARS will run alongside each other.

Although I certainly understand and sympathise with Silent's issue and that of others, I must admit that I see no solution for this other than excluding certain individuals from joining and I am very weary of that step, because that comes down to, in my opinion, doing something that goes against everything this community stands for.



Mischa

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