Re: Our three options

Agreed, if this is the set in stone course we'll take then I will change my vote as well.

-Mike

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Re: Our three options

It's set in stone.

Regards,
Daniel

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Re: Our three options

Daniel Taylor wrote:

It's set in stone.

Regards,
Daniel

Alright, then my vote is now officially for accepting the MARS lease.

-Mike

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Re: Our three options

I'll reply to specific points arising in this thread on another occassion, but I draw everyone's attention to the thread Chris posted in Management called 'Emails between Me, Dan and Ash'.

For instance, in this thread Chris wrote "We have no intention of circumventing your democracy" while in email Daniel wrote "If you could give a straight answer as the admin of your club, instead of putting it to vote, we could've gotten this done sooner, democracy doesn't always work and it isn't always the answer. Dictatorships are much more efficient." (copied by Chris to the 'Emails between Me, Dan and Ash' thread in Management)


Ash

Last edited by Ash Leighton Plom (2010-08-31 21:08:34)

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Re: Our three options

I for one am disappointed at the way Chris and Dan have acted and continue to act.

Regardless of the benefits of accepting the lease, I think the fact that Dan and Chris are rude and unreliable sadly outweighs these.

Besides, I feel we cannot rely on any of their assurances when they are so volatile and prone to petulant outbursts, so how can we accept the lease from them and expect it to be delivered as described?

I fear we'll just be messed around.

~Deborah

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Re: Our three options

I had doubts about my decision to back MARS and in light of this, I have decided to move my vote back to developing our own system.

Re: Our three options

After reading through the emails my opinion has changed once again, as has my vote. While I was in favor of the lease once I saw the terms laid out plainly and could over look the fact that Chris and Dan may have jumped the gun in leaving Phoenix before the vote concluded their actions and statements just don't leave me with much faith that accepting the lease would be in our best interests.

-Mike

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Re: Our three options

Yeah...I'm honestly a little shocked by the emails that were posted. I thought that all was well with the new lease offer, but clearly there's still a lot of resentment (though I'm not really sure why). I think Ash made the right decision by allowing us to vote on this, rather than accepting the MARS lease without any discussion. I think we all made the right decision by finding a new site for Phoenix rather than waiting indefinitely for Chris and Dan to maybe start up DDC Games again (although they themselves had claimed they were done for good, if memory serves well).

I had kinda hoped that the bickering was over and we could move on with our new MARS lease, but now I'm really concerned that whatever bad feelings now exist between Ash and Dan and Chris would, even if we voted to use MARS, cause the offer to be withdrawn or eventually cause a division in the membership. I thought the whole point of leaving AJJE and forming our own club was to put this sort of pettiness behind us.

Nicole

Re: Our three options

Yeesh.

Internet drama is always so ridiculous and the exchange of emails highlights this perfectly. From the very beginning I was all behind accepting the lease.  After the reassurances I was even more behind accepting the lease.  After reading the emails I am simultaneously amused and depressed at the petulance.

Consider me changing my vote to not accepting the lease and either creating our own system or making Phoenix Games a forum based role-playing area.

Re: Our three options

Nicole Rennolds wrote:

Yeah...I'm honestly a little shocked by the emails that were posted. I thought that all was well with the new lease offer, but clearly there's still a lot of resentment (though I'm not really sure why). I think Ash made the right decision by allowing us to vote on this, rather than accepting the MARS lease without any discussion. I think we all made the right decision by finding a new site for Phoenix rather than waiting indefinitely for Chris and Dan to maybe start up DDC Games again (although they themselves had claimed they were done for good, if memory serves well).

I had kinda hoped that the bickering was over and we could move on with our new MARS lease, but now I'm really concerned that whatever bad feelings now exist between Ash and Dan and Chris would, even if we voted to use MARS, cause the offer to be withdrawn or eventually cause a division in the membership. I thought the whole point of leaving AJJE and forming our own club was to put this sort of pettiness behind us.

Nicole

I remember this as well. That was pre-forum when we were getting all the emails each day.  At the time my reading was that DDC was done and would not continue.

As a matter of fact... Thanks to gmail archiving everything - this is what gave me the impression:

Unfortunately, no. However, on a good note, we did save the dev file for MARS. No idea when we will finish it ... If at all. As I would be moving back to Birmingham due to family related reasons and Chris will not have much internet access in Dundee as he will be moving his computer back upstairs, and his wifi pen doesn't reach that far ....

Regards,
Daniel Taylor

Then Daniel and Chris asked to be removed from the email discussion.  A few folks asked why, and Silent Hunter responded with:

They no longer have the time to commit to the project - their internet access is going to be limited.

DDC is essentially in stasis.



-- Silent Hunter UK

All of that made me think DDC was done.  When the MARS discussion kicked up on here again I was a little confused but just assumed I had misread the emails.

                        -Ryan


ps. As a total side note... As an American, the British English in the posted email exchange amused me to no end.  I quite enjoyed seeing "pram" used in a sentence.  Pulling up our socks also cracked me up.

Re: Our three options

Heya, just chucking my two pence in;

Seems we have a working forum for the time being and we're not facing any deadlines to improve it. So I think it's not outside the box to develop our own system. (After all, the Phoenix rose from its own ashes, not loaned ashes! tongue)

'Sides with focus on this topic, we're losing valuable game-time!

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Re: Our three options

Chris Wilkinson wrote:

I have some comments to make here, largely as Election Coordinator both here at Phoenix RP and as the last Election Coordinator BTS (Before The Strike).

    Ash,

    In AJJE voter turnout was never more than 40 percent, in most votes... it was 30 percent or less,

    Right now,  14 people have voted and pheonix has 43 members.

    That means that 32.6 pecent of pheonix roleplay has voted on the issue which is already a higher turnout than AJJE,

    of those 14, 64.3 percent have voted against MARS,

    From my understanding, the most influential people in Phenoix are openly against being reliant on anyone outside of phoenix,

    If I were to project the outcome based on current results, I would be left with a vote of,

    6 For option 1
    27 for option 2
    9 for option 3

    At the end of the day, we made our pitch, tried to back up our points but with no luck, to me, it appears that a majority of pheonix wish to go it alone with no help from outside due to recent events even citing AJJE as a precedent.

    Chris

Chris - under my guidance as Election Coordinator I can tell you that the LOTW Turnout for Resolution Votes (which is now mostly people that play here and VOTED on LOTW - my thanks to you all!  big_smile ) was never below 60%, and at one point was less than 1% away from being a 70% Turnout.

Secondly, were I to run this vote, for each and every time the two of you changed the terms of the lease which have been countably many, I would have no choice but to declare the resolution null and void, and to restart the resolution over again. Dictating a deadline for Phoenix RP and insisting on the finality of that date while constantly changing the terms of the lease is not Democracy, nor is it fair and I do hope you both make drastic improvements upon your business attitude before bringing another offer like this to the table with anyone.

As it is perfectly reasonable to nullify and void a vote in which the resolution has been altered, then I shall take such action which I should have done some time ago - on behalf of the Phoenix RP community and as Election Coordinator, I will not tolerate any more jerking around on the terms of the lease. This is not a reaction to the E-mails thread, the behavior of any one person or group of people, but rather a reaction to the constant shifting of votes by the membership due to a continual stream of new information. The time has come to settle on legally binding and unchanging terms that can be put to vote without the continual addition of new information.



The events surrounding this vote have been a mockery of the democratic nature of Phoenix RP, so with this in mind I am making the following official ruling, which is written in full explanation below as an example for future votes until such time that the First Elections of Phoenix RP are concluded and it is translated into legislature:



As Election Coordinator, given that the terms of the lease to be voted on have changed, I hereby declare this vote NULL AND VOID until such time that new terms are settled upon for a new vote. Any terms to be decided are to be processed by Robert Longtin - the Election Coordinator - to be put to a vote. Once the terms are decided, they are to be made available in full to all members and put to a vote.
Once a vote is opened, the terms of all items within a vote are considered legally binding for the purposes of a vote and if at any time changes to the terms are to be made, then the Election Coordinator is required to nullify and void any votes prior to the changes being made on any votes relying on the pending changes.
Once new terms are decided, votes dependent on those changes may be reopened for the same length of time given to the previous vote(s), starting with the date on which the vote(s) are reopened.


Sorry to lay down law, but it appears I have no other choice in the matter as I and I'm sure many others are getting frustrated with the constant changing.

Should you decide to put this to a new vote Dan, Chris, I expect the terms to be e-mailed to me. You can expect that the next vote will be conducted via the new system which is currently undergoing testing - testing which will conclude tomorrow.

Robert Longtin
Election Coordinator

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Re: Our three options

That's fair, we are confused with all this business stuff (None of us took business, well I haven't, no idea about Chris) and I would like to apologise for being a ... for the lack of a better word .. a jerk and if possible would like to discuss any terms via email with the main coordinators. Hopefully we can agree to something we all would like, maybe Phoenix and DDC could work on MARS together and make an opensource web application?

I apologise for any inconvenience DDC have caused to phoenix games and wish you all luck.

Kind Regards,
Daniel Taylor

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Re: Our three options

Thank you Daniel for you kind words.

To the best of my knowledge Euan Reid and Ash Plom (being our previously elected officials on LOTW) are acting as representatives of Phoenix RP for negotiations and I would advise that you and Chris e-mail them to bring the terms back to the negotiation tables - tabula rasa.

I've never taken a business class but I've worked as an Advertising Manager for some time and experience has taught me when dealing with outside companies/agencies that it's a lot of diplomacy.

If any are interested, I'm willing to act as an Adviser to help see the negotiations through to the end: finalized terms to be put to vote. If not, feel free to message/e-mail me to let me know how things are going!

~Robert

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Re: Our three options

Aidan Fal wrote:

I personally wasn't as scathed by the AJJE fallout as most people, I'm perfectly supportive of taking a helping hand when it's offered. However Chris, despite your ego, the U.N. you are not, hahaha. You're much more effective, you and Dan, and everyone who has been working on the MARS system.

"Try doing business with friends once, if only to never make the same mistake twice." Proverb.

Well, who knew proverbs tend to be right...

I have been taking business classes and I'll tell you one thing. There's a difference when you deal with a per-customer basis and when you deal with a collective customer basis. This being the latter. If you need help with your business model I'd be glad to help. In either case, any business major can tell you that a proposal will be overruled outright if not shown in a positive light.

I suggest, that regardless of your current terms, you draft a new topic with Robert as liaison to our deliberation needs, lay down the most current outline of your proposal, up-sell your product with its benefits, DO notify the consumer of any unassailable long-term deals that go along with it, including any foreseeable problems needing debate or that need troubleshooting. You are an honest business, after all. Close your presentation with a positive word, open the floor for questions, and when you are done GRACEFULLY accept the decision with dignity and poise, they do not come quickly, especially when dealing with a group as centrally uncoordinated as this is. For you are a true businessman, and there's no room for children in a conference room, on either side. You are, by all means allowed to question the decision for feedback if it is negative, this is expected most of the time. Every answer will help you bring your product before others, having solved the problems with each meeting if there are any. Cost, negative features, and selling points.

Congratulations, you have the basics of a selling strategy... And that, I gave to you free of charge, and free of bias. If you're having trouble selling a free product-- Something is wrong. And with all business that is directly tied to you, it becomes personal. I can understand copyright infringement happens and you don't want to be that sucker, but while you may regard us silently as possible threats, that's your prerogative. Openly admitting that is a decidedly poor decision. Don't forget to assuage the misgivings of the consumer, if there are any. Everyone else feel free to add-on, it may seem like a lot, but it's only a start.

~Aidan

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Re: Our three options

Thank you, Robert. I look forward to seeing final terms put up for vote.

Re: Our three options

At the end of the day, we also need to remember that this is all about being able to play games of make believe.  Yes, there are business models that undepin that but lets not forget why we all do this ... because it's fun, we share a common interest and we all need a bit of healthy escapism.

I love debate - really, I do!  I love the fact that people can question what I say or suggest and I hope  that I'm big enough to hold my hands up and admit when I'm wrong (I'm married, though - that helps with this one!). 

Most importantly, however, is the need to keep things civil, friendly and positive ... some of these discussions have dropped below the level that I'd hope to see them operate at - that's not an accusatory statement and I'm not pointing fingers at individuals but I do think it's important to remember to be good natured, upbeat and positive. I'm sure we all have enough troubles in RL without needing to drag it into our hooby environment.

Just my 2penceworth.

~ Nick

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Re: Our three options

You're right Nick. We're hobbyists, after all, and should try not to take ourselves too seriously.

That said, there are serious things that have come up from this and need responding to appropriately.

First and foremost: Dan, thank you. I've emailed you looking to the future and especially to DDC's and Phoenix's future together. If we get to considering working together on MARS I'll CC Technical Coordinator Euan in, with your consent. I'm happy for you to CC Chris if he shares your current position, or we can continue to talk just the two of us if he's happy you being DDC's representative. What I don't want to happen is for you and me to reach an agreement and then I receive an email from Chris countermanding it (like what happened when you kindly gave us MARS to develop for ourselves in the first place), so let me know what you think is best. I think Robert's right that the best starting point at this juncture is a tabula rasa, a clean slate.

Secondly: Robert, I've acted on your wise post and closed the poll. I agree that the terms being voted on in any future vote should go through yourself and be confirmed by you before voting opens.

My current feeling is similar to what Olee said - we have a working forum for play in the time being and we're not facing any urgent deadlines to improve upon it, so as we have both the time and the wherewithal (in terms of some exceptionally talented tech wizards who have volunteered - Deborah, Euan, Jason, Kevin, Nicole, and Robert) we'd do well to develop our own system. But obviously I'll keep you all posted if something workable arises from liaising by email with Daniel and Chris.

Ash

Last edited by Ash Leighton Plom (2010-09-01 16:31:07)

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Re: Our three options

My two cents is this i actually kinda like it this way anyhow cause I think that it is cool that I have no clue what is going on in other places that my characters are not there in AJJE you see every post and i have no clue what you would see in this new system but right now if it aint broke dont go for a quick fix.

Come on! Vampires! Grrr! Nasty! Let's annihilate them, for justice, and for... the safety of puppies... and Christmas, right? -Spike (from Doomed)

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Re: Our three options

Last of the summer wine....I mean, uh, housekeeping! Closing this thread since it appears to have run its course.