Re: Our three options

After reading the threads, and bearing in mind, I'm not a technically minded chap, my vote is to decline the lease and design our own system ... assuming, of course, that (a) we're capable of doing this and (b) we have people who have the time and inclination to do it.

I have no knowledge, ability, skill or understanding of things technical, however ... just sayin' up front, like!

~ (Other) Nick

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Re: Our three options

There's no need for us to develop a unique system - we could use NOVA or something off-the-shelf.

Re: Our three options

Or this? Another?

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Re: Our three options

Krista Bäckman wrote:

Or this? Another?

Exactly... you can do a decent site with Bulletin Boards; look at Myth-Weavers.

Re: Our three options

@Nicole: Totally agree with you!

Also, if we do decide to roll our own unique system, I can potentially help (being in the software industry I have some limits as to what kind of "moonlighting" work I can do, though).

If we roll an already developed system and modify it for our own use, that becomes MUCH easier (I prefer this way, personally, as developing something from scratch is not a task to be taken lightly nor something that is easily given away for free).

http://www.phoenix-rp.com/img/pips/4.png http://oi60.tinypic.com/5otabo.jpg

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Re: Our three options

Chris Wilkinson wrote:

We don't think it is premature as if you exlude the votes we had to put in to  be able to see the results (You can't blame us for being intrigued),  the vote stands at

2 For accepting MARS
9 for Rejecting
3 for devleoping your own system.

That is a very large gap, and it would be like expecting the lib dems to beat the conservatives in the election, and all current indications are that from those that have commented, approximatly 70 percent of the member base of pheonix would rather have it so that you are reliant on nobody

I'm making a point of this because you have apparently misread the info. Also the votes have changed.

4 For accepting MARS
9 For Developing our own system
3 For accepting MARS temporarily but developing our own system in the future.

That actually puts the vote at 7 for accepting MARS (at least temporarily) to 9 declining MARS.

I truly think this 3-way vote should be redone as 2 separate votes. We could have the vote turn out 5:9:5 which means the majority want MARS at least temporarily, and that the majority also want to develop our own system sometime down the road.

This should be split into 2 separate votes. I'm hesitant to suggest ranked pairs and 1 vote because we can still have an identical problem. Let's make this 2 separate votes where members vote the following:

Accept the MARS lease for a renewable term of 1 year

  • Yes

  • No

Design our own system for future use

  • Yes

  • No

That way the mixed group (those who want to accept the MARS lease temporarily but still want our own system in the future) aren't misrepresented in the vote.

I understand we're under time constraints here, so I'd like to address specifically Ash, Chris, and Daniel on this note - tomorrow I am officially running the test on the Voting system that we will (hopefully) be using until we can manage something better. Would any of you mind if this vote were extended so that it runs from this Saturday thru next Saturday on the new voting system?

~Robert

(this is a repeat of a post in another thread so either space is fine for a response!)

http://i41.tinypic.com/2q2e0ig.png

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Re: Our three options

I'm not seeing the post Robert quoted (outside of his quote). Also on the blog it says that the MARS developers left the forum entirely.

Is this the case? Am I understanding things correctly and they left the discussion and everything entirely because the vote didn't appear to be going their way?

Re: Our three options

The post Robert quoted was in a different thread, I think he copied it here because it is more relevant here than in the other thread.

I don't know if there is more going on behind the scenes or not, but it does seem like they did leave the forums entirely because the vote wasn't going their way.

http://www.phoenix-rp.com/img/pips/4.png http://oi60.tinypic.com/5otabo.jpg

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Re: Our three options

As stated before,

We went (Yes we still check) as it appeared to us that Pheonix does not appear to want or need our help.

It would be like the UN remaining to help a country after its leaders have said that they don't need it.

Re: Our three options

I personally wasn't as scathed by the AJJE fallout as most people, I'm perfectly supportive of taking a helping hand when it's offered. However Chris, despite your ego, the U.N. you are not, hahaha. You're much more effective, you and Dan, and everyone who has been working on the MARS system.

"Try doing business with friends once, if only to never make the same mistake twice." Proverb.

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Re: Our three options

Chris, using your analogy it is like the UN offering a vote to a country as to whether or not they need them, then the UN leaving half way through the vote...

As a community we haven't decided on your proposals yet, so regardless of what you say leaving was slightly premature. Also, Robert is working on the system of voting to ensure it is representative (see his long post above), so the vote itself may even need to be done again.

Deb

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Re: Our three options

I'm posting a copy of this here - I posted it in the 'A review from Chris' thread after Robert proposed a new and more representative vote on the MARS question which would run for circa two weeks, but my post is more approrpriately placed here:


Chris Wilkinson wrote:

Except the fact that our generosity would have run out by then, we had agreed to a 2 week voting period, not 3/4.

We do have other projects to complete, and MARS is already behind schedule as we wait for this vote to end

This would be my concern as well - Daniel did email me on the 25th to point out that the offer for MARS (being free) is only a one time offer and is only on the 'virtual table' until the end of the 14 days voting period I set up.

I asked for him to clarify whether if the club votes to accept the lease, it'll be too late to accept the offer anyway because the offer will have expired, or if he meant that if the club votes not to accept the lease this time, we don't get another chance unless we pay, and he confirmed it's the latter.

We started discussing the terms of the lease provisionally so if the club vote in favour of accepting MARS, we'll have the terms ready to roll, but that was before Chris and Daniel both posted their intent to withdraw. Chris helpfully projected the outcome of the vote based on the vote as it stood then as

6 For option 1
27 for option 2
9 for option 3

Incidentally, he also noted that 32.6 pecent of Phoenix Roleplay had already voted at the time he made his calculations - which was already a higher turnout than AJJE clubs generally achieved - and more have voted in the 40 or so hours since then, which I take as an encouraging indication of democracy alive and well in Phoenix. :-)

Anyway, the reiterated temporary nature of Daniel and Chris' supreme generosity aside, I wonder if this might serve as a solution of sorts:

Chris, Dan... DDC could continue work on MARS, given your stated intent to develop it for the market? You don't need to hold off on production just because your first potential customer company is voting on whether or not to use it. You're not wasting your time like you said, 'cos you're hoping to sell the product to other customers later on.

I have to make clear at this time, though, that Phoenix won't be buying MARS during my tenure as General Coordinator, so if you're giving us the choice of either deciding now and circumventing democracy or concluding our vote and if the vote is to accept then we have to pay, we need you to let us know. If that's the situation, then obviously we'll have to close the vote and decline the lease - the goalposts keep moving at the moment, and you're making me (personally) a bit confused as to whether you want to lease this to us or not...

Ash

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Re: Our three options

Okay obviously I need to explain this very clearly,

Phoenix Roleplay is being offered a free copy of the 100 pound version of MARS however without control of the code for obvious reasons.

Now, the time is limited on this offer to 15 days, to include 1 day after the vote as I believe no additional one is needed,

Unless each side is equal there will be a majority and if anybody mentions option 3, it can be seen on both sides of accepting and denying (More Denying in my opinion).

We have no intention of circumventing your democracy, as we do respect your right to do so.

If Phoenix wished to purchase the free version at a later date, I am sure something could be arranged then.

Right now, a FREE version of the full version of MARS which would include,

Content Management System (Which can be sold online for up to £2500)
Forum Software (Which can be sold for up to £150 online)
MARS System (which apart from PARS is unique and probably quite valuable)

(Prices depend on quality)

So it would be a bargain to you at no cost. But because you would be getting our full package you would also get our tech support skills and us keeping an eye on our code (Non negotiable)

Mine and Dan's votes should NOT be counted in this as we are not members of phoenix and therefore should not have a say in this, and in addition, we would be bias in this so our 2 votes (In the accept MARS category) should not be part of a final decision.

Last edited by Chris Wilkinson (2010-08-28 12:26:52)

Re: Our three options

I have been persuaded to change my position on this with new information.

I am backing Option 1 for the time being. This places the vote at 4-8-3, still a majority against any acceptance of MARS, but this may change.

Re: Our three options

Don't you mean 5-8-3?

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Re: Our three options

Chris, this is a helpful post.

Can we take this last statement from you as a binding statement of your offer?

Deb

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Re: Our three options

Krista Bäckman wrote:

Don't you mean 5-8-3?

Now, because Chris and Daniel don't want their votes to count.

Re: Our three options

Me and Chris have been tossing ideas back and forth and we may have come up with a solution we all can enjoy.

In the next couple of weeks, I will be making a server to go in my house. This server will hold DDCGames, the games we make and MARs production files (stable releases and betas). Now, we are willing to extend the voting period an extra couple of weeks and start working on MARs during that period.

Our NEW terms ... (So disregard the old terms)... are as follows:

We can offer you free webhosting, on my server, with all the space you need and how many sql servers and all that stuff you want. and give you access to the code. However, not full access, but enough access to make the relevant changes you want to do. That way me and Chris can work on updates and keep both our stuff working together.
Now, what you control is a folder named 'plug-ins' which will essentially allow you to bolt on whatever code you want , while keeping the integrity of the MARS Kernel safe. Now you still will get everything for free. All you have to do is pay for your own domain name, which is like £2.99 for two years (depending where you go).

Summary:
- Free hosting
- Free MARs
- You have access to the code, but it would be more of a plug-in system, so the Mars kernel is essentially untouched and won't be prone to breaking.

How does that sound?

Regards,
Daniel

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Re: Our three options

It sounds generous: provided it's free, I would accept MARS on these terms.

We still have plenty of time for this vote; I will accept whatever the outcome is.

Last edited by Silent Hunter (2010-08-28 19:16:41)

Re: Our three options

Silent Hunter wrote:

It sounds generous: provided it's free, I would accept MARS on these terms.

We still have plenty of time for this vote; I will accept whatever the outcome is.

I agree here, and I have to say that this *final* offer is reasonable. Most notably having a concrete and explained offer definitely shifts the scales in my opinion.

~Robert

http://i41.tinypic.com/2q2e0ig.png

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Re: Our three options

I've been away for some time, but now that I've read up with this thread, the conditions provided seem fine to me. I've voted in favour of using MARs.

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Re: Our three options

I agree that this new offer is very reasonable, and with the changes that have been made, I'm willing to vote to accept it.

Is there any stipulation for how long these terms will apply? Like, would this lease be good for a year, two years, or is it indefinite?

Nicole

Re: Our three options

Indefinite.

Regards,
Daniel

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Re: Our three options

Thanks for the clarification smile

Nicole

Last edited by Nicole Rennolds (2010-08-30 21:09:15)

Re: Our three options

RLongtin wrote:
Silent Hunter wrote:

It sounds generous: provided it's free, I would accept MARS on these terms.

We still have plenty of time for this vote; I will accept whatever the outcome is.

I agree here, and I have to say that this *final* offer is reasonable. Most notably having a concrete and explained offer definitely shifts the scales in my opinion.

~Robert

I have to agree - this is the first solid offer we've had and it does change things for me too.

The only concern for me that remains is that the goalposts have changed a lot over the last few weeks and that they might again, but if we can count on this as how things will actually be then I'm happy to change my vote to accept the MARS lease too.

Deb

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